John McCarthy
Interview by Robert Sargent
Widely regarded as the "best in the business," mixed martial arts' most famous official, "Big" John McCarthy, talks with MMARising.com about his storied 16-year career, today's officials, broadcasting and his recent return to active duty.
John McCarthy, a Los Angeles Police Officer and Tactical Self-Defence Instructor, is best known as the authoritative third man inside the Octagon, having officiated 535 mixed martial arts bouts in the Ultimate Fighting Championship. From MMA's humble beginnings to its current success, McCarthy has seen it all. Having recently returned to active duty as an official, McCarthy shares his thoughts on his career and the current state of the sport, as well as his aspirations for the future.
To borrow a phrase from the man himself, "Let's get it on!"
MMARising.com: Hello, John, and thank you for taking the time for this interview. For those who may not have followed your career from the beginning, could you provide a bit of information from your pre-MMA days and talk a bit about what first attracted you to the sport?
John McCarthy: Growing up, I was involved in a lot of different sports, but the only ones that could have had any involvement with MMA would have been boxing and wrestling. Later on in my life, I became friends with Rorion Gracie and started studying Gracie Jiu-Jitsu under Rorion. I totally believed in what Rorion was trying to do, in spreading the word about the effectiveness of ground fighting. I loved that he would put himself on the line and test his belief against anyone that wanted to test their ability or style against his. There was no MMA back then; it was called Vale Tudo, or "anything goes," and I loved that you could do more than just stand and throw punches.
MMARising.com: You became a Los Angeles police officer in 1985. What was the most dangerous experience that you faced outside of the cage, before you started officiating in MMA? Was it easier to police the streets or the Octagon?
John: I took part in a lot of situations that would be considered more dangerous than officiating an MMA fight. Police officers, on a daily basis, put their lives on the line in a way that cannot be compared to what a fighter or an official faces in a ring. When you are pursuing a suspect, either on foot or in a vehicle, there is danger. When a suspect shoots a gun at you, there is danger...so it's impossible to compare them. MMA is a sport. The fighters are there to compete with each other, not to kill each other. Yes, they are fighting, and there can be injuries, but MMA is really all about competition. So, being a referee is a lot safer than being a police officer, although you do have some comparisons in the fact that people will like you or hate you based upon what you represent more than who you really are.
MMARising.com: UFC 2 was the first time that fans got to see you as a referee in the Ultimate Fighting Championship. The rules were much different back then. How difficult was it to do your job at that time, when there was considerable pressure from the outside and few rules to go on?
John: Well, back at UFC 2, there were not a lot of rules, so it seemed that my job would be very simple and easy. However, after the show got started and I was into about my fifth or sixth fight, I could see that I was going to have a lot of problems with the fighters' cornermen taking care of their fighters. They were not doing their job in protecting the fighters, which in turn was making it difficult for me to do my job in protecting the fighters. In retrospect, everything happens for a reason, and I had to go through a lot of hard times and ugly situations to help bring a change to the sport so we can enjoy MMA like we do now.
MMARising.com: You were instrumental in shaping and implementing the current rules of "intelligent defence," which provides guidelines for referees to stop a fight if one fighter is no longer capable of defending themselves from strikes. Would you say that this has been the biggest change in MMA officiating since the early days?
John: I came up with the term "Intelligent Defense" after UFC 2. I was not going to step back into the cage without the ability to stop a fight when a fighter was unable to tap or when his corner was too stupid to throw in a towel. So, that change happened a long time ago and it has held up under a lot of scrutiny over the years. The rules of MMA have not really changed since the Unified Rules came into place back in April of 2001. There have been minor adaptations to some of the rules, but they have stayed the same for a long time.
MMARising.com: You retired from officiating in the UFC after The Ultimate Fighter 6 Finale on December 8th, 2007, and began commentating for The Fight Network in Canada. Tell us a bit about your decision to step outside of the cage to provide insight from the broadcast booth.
John: I had been refereeing for 14 years, and saw what I thought were changes coming to the sport, as far as the officials. I could not make everybody happy, so I just thought it would be best for me to walk away and try something different.
MMARising.com: You've stated in the past that The Fight Network had good ideas, but overextended itself in a number of ways, which led to you departing from your commentary position. Could you provide a bit more detail as to what frustrated you and led to your decision to leave?
John: They didn't pay me and other employees...that says it all.
MMARising.com: After providing commentary for Affliction's debut show, "Banned," you returned to active duty as an official last year for another UFC rival, Strikeforce. Do you plan to continue your involvement with promotions outside of the UFC in 2009?
John: I have been working as an official since November of 2008 and I will work for any organization that the Athletic Commission assigns me to.
MMARising.com: Aside from Strikeforce, what is one other non-UFC promotion in North America that fans should keep their eyes on in 2009? And outside of North America?
John: I don't know if there is another promotion in North America or the world that can compete with the UFC. They are so strong and well-branded in the sport. There are a lot of really good small shows that are out there that are putting on really good fights. Sportfight, MFC, Rumble in the Cage, California Extreme Fighting, TFA, Total Combat, the list goes on and on. You don't have to go to the big show to see good fights. They are happening every week.
Outside of North America, it still goes to the Japanese promotions as far as the best shows. Sengoku is a good show and DREAM does a phenomenal job, with their production values probably being the best, although the Japanese public still has not recovered from the problems that arose around the fall of PrideFC.
MMARising.com: If you had the opportunity, would you consider moving overseas to become a full-time referee for Japanese promotions like DREAM or World Victory Road?
John: I don't know if I could afford to move over to Japan, but I would gladly work with any promotion that puts on the kind of fights and entertaining shows that both DREAM and WVR do.
MMARising.com: Now that you have returned to active duty, how many more years do you see yourself being involved in officiating in mixed martial arts?
John: I really don't know how many more years I will continue to referee. I do know that, just like fighters who lose their edge, so can referees and I will not be the one that tries to hold on too long. Once I lose the ability to do my job effectively and keep the fighters safe, I will stop refereeing and just judge. I do not see myself ever being far from the sport of MMA.
MMARising.com: Changing focus, you have recently been working with Round 5 MMA to develop a figurine in your likeness, which will be released in the coming months. What was this experience like, and how pleased were you with the finished product?
John: The whole Round 5 experience has been great. The Lau brothers are very easy to work with and make the whole process very easy on the fighters and myself, plus they actually care about what you think and what you want to see come about with the final product. For the fighters, they give them the ability to put sponsors on their shorts, not only to make the figurine more life-like but to help the fighters in getting compensated by the sponsor, or in just giving something back to the sponsor.
When I first saw the clay model of my figurine, I laughed because it is like a cartoon character, but also so life-like. I think they have done a phenomenal job on not only my figurine, but on every one of the fighters I have seen so far.
MMARising.com: The business of MMA action figures and figurines, much like the sport of MMA itself, is a competitive one, but Round 5 has so far released a number of very impressive designs and products. With new fighters working with the company all the time, what do you think 2009 (and beyond) holds for Round 5?
John: I really think that Round 5 has cornered the market on their specific style of fighter figurines. I have seen other ones out there, but they look more like the GI Joe action figure from when I was a kid. The Round 5 figurine isn't a toy. It's a collectible that people who are passionate about the sport will love to own and display. The fact that the Round 5 guys are easy to work with, and also have a passion for the sport of MMA, is only going to make other fighters and people want to work with them in the future.
MMARising.com: Lastly, what is one thing that you would like to accomplish in MMA that you have not yet had the opportunity to do?
John: I have truly accomplished more in MMA than I ever thought possible. I am so lucky, and have been so blessed to have gone places and taken part in events that have been huge in the growth and evolution of the sport. To say that I need anything more would just be vain on my part. I am very happy with what I have done in the past, what I am doing now in the present and where I see MMA going.
MMARising.com: Do you have any final thoughts or comments?
John: No, I would just like to thank all of the supporters of MMA out there. Without you, the sport and the fighters would be nowhere. Thank you for your passion and your support of the sport.
MMARising.com: Thank you very much for your time for this interview, and best of luck to you in all future endeavours.
John: Thank you very, very much.
MMARising.com sincerely thanks John for his time and candid comments in this interview. We look forward to seeing him back in the ring in the near future.
